something. these are brand-new business start-ups, a very important economic measure, way down. >> well, i think, to me, i'm an entrepreneur, and i think that true entrepreneurs, it doesn't really matter what's going on in the economy, if they come up with a great business idea, great product, they're risk takers. they're going to go for it. it doesn't matter if the taxes are up 5% -- it doesn't matter what is going on with that. they are people that are just pioneers. they're going to forge ahead and start that business no matter what. >> i had my pal art laffer on and we were talking about capital. capital is going to be taxed much more heavily, no matter what happens with the fiscal cliff. the tax rate on capital gains, for example, which is a key tax on wealth and risk taking and entrepreneurship, has gone up. is that going to make it harder? >> well, it might make it harder, but i don't think it's going to stop people. and that's my point. i think it doesn't really matter. to me personally, it wouldn't have mattered when i started my business 16 years ago.